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Closing a road is not so easy to do and the further out the closure is the
harder it gets ... exponentially. The difficult thing is dependably know
when the oncoming field will be there and getting the cars stopped well
ahead of that. For a 200 m closure that can generally be done by 1 or 2
people with a stop paddle and loud voices. Further out requires more
forethought, radios, more people, etc. A wider finish does not necessarily
make a safer finish unless the road gets so wide that there is more space
then needed for the field. Even then it does work all that well as
demonstrated by frequent finish sprint crashes at PIR.
Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of G Magnus
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 18:28 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint
So I read through all the OBRA Rules and there is nothing about the distance
from the finish that the road can be fully opened up...OBRA rules state:
15.1.1- Course design -A road course will be designed and implemented with
the safety of the riders foremost. The finish will be wide enough for the
largest field expected.
It will be as straight as possible, with an adequate run out. The finish
line will be a conspicuous line on the road.
If the course is not a circuit, signs will also be placed marking 200 meters
and 1 kilometer before the finish.
Obviously we have some road races where we never get the full road for
varied reasons. Kenji, Candi, Mike can you shed some light on the
traditional 200m full road sprint?
Totally off this topic but interesting none the less: Did you know that if
you are in dead heat finish for 1st place in a race that you would re-ride
the last portion of the race to determine a winner? Obra rules 10.3
~Gregg
_____
From: bikexcr@hotmail.com
To: ratliffb@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:11:54 -0700
CC: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint
Dont forget every crit as well. We get the full road for the entire race and
sprint there and things flow perfectly fine as well.
_____
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:09:27 -0700
From: ratliffb@gmail.com
To: bikexcr@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint
CC: obra@list.obra.org
Good point. I don't think I have enough experience to answer it. This is
my first full season racing and I've only done PIR three times in tiny
fields (11-16 riders) late last summer.
On 3/31/08, r r wrote:
Alas,
Thank you Brian for at least getting back on topic. Somehow the topic turned
into the telephone game, and turned into a finger pointing contest.
The main point of the original email was, why not open up the road earlier,
if it does not violate any sort of county permit code that must be followed
in order to have the race put on.
But, in with the road opened earlier, does not mean everyone will have the
ability to move around. Take PIR for example. See how nicely the sprints
work there with the nice wide open road. Sprints work there how they are
suppose to work. And in the end, the true sprinters and stronger riders
still emerge and the peleton is still strung out despite optimal space for
everyoen and their grandmother to move around in. I guess thats what i am
getting at. Everyone likes a course thats nice and wide open, so why
purposely have it tighter during the most chaotic time, that is if it does
not violate permit code for hosting the race.
_____
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:46:38 -0700
From: ratliffb@gmail.com
To: srh148@yahoo.com
CC: jeff.nelson@yakima.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint
Just to clear up some misunderstandings starting to form, for the sake of
the peanut gallery here...
Nobody from any team was riding four abreast "blocking" the pack, so I've
been told. Portland Velo had 4 guys in the race, and towards the end of the
race, they were, all four, near the front of the peloton, working to try to
lead out a sprinter to the finish. There was no Portland Velo breakaway, so
I understand, that they would be blocking for. I believe that Mr. Nelson
merely found himself in the back half of a slow moving peloton, unable to
move up, and saw a couple Portland Velo jerseys of guys who were smart
enough to make the move up the front of the pack early so they could contest
the finish. I believe they put one man in the top 10 - not terrible for a
Cat5 team still learning team tactics.
It is well known that it is difficult to move around in the pack on the
Piece of Cake course. Myself, racing in the 4's, I had to start making my
move about 10 miles from the finish in order to complete it by the two miles
to go mark. Then I sat near the front, sucking wind, for the last couple
miles so I could have a shot at a good finish. It's just racing is all.
So, to summarize: No breakaway. No blocking. Just a frustrated racer who
didn't make the move to the front of the peloton early enough to contest the
finish.
To move this thread back on the original topic; I have sometimes wondered
myself why the road didn't open up sooner than 200m. Particularly at Banana
Belt, by the time 200m came up, the sprinters had already picked their lines
and opening up the other lane had no real affect. On the other hand, I can
see that perhaps the opening of both lanes at 200m is meant as a pure safety
matter, and opening the lane up sooner would eliminate the safety of having
extra room to maneuver in a sprint.
Say the lane opened at 500m, what would happen with a 50+ person peloton?
Why, everyone and their Grandma would move up around the side of the peloton
to get to the front and fill the road just the same and their would be no
safety benefit at all. The way it is now, nobody seriously contesting the
sprint uses the newly opened lane (takes too long to move across the road
after the sprint has started), so the open lane acts as a safety buffer in
case someone doesn't hold their line. If there is a crash at the finish, it
provides an escape route to get around.
On 3/31/08, STEVEN R HOLLAND wrote:
I was in a cat 3 race many years ago in the Seattle area. One team staged in
the front. Once the race started, they sent two riders up the road and put 4
guys across the road blocking the road. They obviously had this planned. By
the time some of us forced our way up to the front......it was to late...the
two riders were gone.
IMO you should never have 4 riders on the front [especially from one team]
just soft peddling. If you do not want to race, move over so others can.
This happens often in all fields. Why sit on the front? I never understand
this. What does this accomplish, unless you are doing it for the sole
purpose of blocking others from racing?
Ty, I'm sure those other 53 riders would have been happy to "take their turn
at the front" if your fellas would have let them Why force others to make
aggressive moves just to get by and race?
Steve [I'd rather attack than sit in] Holland
Ty Lambert wrote:
If 53 other riders could not overcome 4 riders from a particular team,
perhaps you are in the correct field.
Stop sucking wheels and start taking your turn at the front.
Ty Lambert
Portland Velo
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Matthew Klahn
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 1:58 PM
To: Jerald M Powell
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Jeff
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Sprint
Physically pushing your way through Cat. 5 riders is almost certainly
dangerous (especially in early season races), and it is unsafe,
irresponsible and unsporting for a team to try this. If you have a
large enough team to block in this way, and you can't lead a rider out
to win a sprint, then perhaps you should rethink your training, etc. I
think Jeff's comments are spot-on; I didn't race yesterday (and would
not have been in this category, anyway), but a friend who finished
top-10 in this race related how this went down in yesterday's sprint
finish. Seems like PV riders could stand to learn some real team
tactics rather than employ the ones that seem to have been used the
last two years (!) at PoC.
Just another reason to get out of the Cat. 4/5 ASAP, IMO.
Matthew
On Mar 31, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Jerald M Powell wrote:
> Jeff... "unsafe" might be over cooking it a bit. "Unwise", or
> "Ineffective" is probably a fair criticism. "Blocking" by plugging up
> the road, firstly, doesn't work very well because any physical rider
> accustomed to a bit of shoulder to hip contact is capable of riding
> through it (even if it risks criticism for dangerous riding).
> secondly, it gains no particular tactical advantage and in fact
> requires just as much energy from the "blocker" as it does from the
> "blockee".
>
> Jerry
>
> On Mar 31, 2008, at 10:52 AM, Jeff wrote:
>> I raced in the Cat 5 race and would say that the problem with antsy
>> riders and unsafe riding started as soon as Portland Velo riders
>> began boxing the group on the second lap. It made the race unsafe
>> and not fun. The first lap was good, riders taking turns pulling and
>> a safe peleton.
>>
>> Kudo's to all Cat 5 riders for keeping the rubber side down despite
>> the unsafe tactics of others.
>
>
>
>
> Jerry Powell
> USAC Level 1 Coach
> 1926 SW Madison St
> Portland, OR 97205
>
> 503 222 7173
> 503 799 7823 (cellular)
>
> jpowell@spiritone.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
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C(503)780-7296
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