another friendly point:

Dan, I think it would be better service to Luciano's statement to interpret
what he wrote as making the point that the best messenger's possess a highly
evolved level of skills, and that the practice and talent it takes to
develop this level is akin to the practice and talent it takes to develop at
the level of the best track racers. They are, of course, different skill
sets, and being good at one does not mean a person would be good at the
other. I would suggest that the best interpretation of what he wrote is to
say that messengers deserve respect for being good at what it is that they
do, just like everyone else.

so, for instance, many people on this list, including me of course, might be
deserving of credit for never letting an opportunity to keep a topic from
dying pass by.

:)

-Matthew

On 7/30/06, Dan H wrote:
>
> Friendly rebuttal:
> Luciano, While I agree that bike messengers must posses a high level of
> skill just to stay free of injury or death, I must take exception to your
> comment that couriers skills are no different than world class
> cyclists. I
> have observed several messenger types attempt to take it to the track and
> show those trackies what a messenger can do and most of the time they get
> spanked. It's not their fault, it's just that street skills and work do
> not
> necessarily translate to success on the track (or road). In addition,
> messenger work is not very good training for racing. Of course there are
> exceptions (Nelson Vails comes to mind) but most of those had to quit
> messengering to train properly for racing.
> Even though I spend a lot of time driving for money and consider myself
> very
> proficient at it, I don't think I could hop into a NASCAR and be
> competitive!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Luciano bailey"
> To: ;
> Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 11:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Multnomah County Judge's Ruling: Fixed-gear Bikes
> MustHave a Brake
>
>
> > You must be kidding me !!!!!!!! These bikes this lifestylle is not for
> > everyone .Most messengers are professional bike riders in there own
> right
> > not only can these brave souls navigate cuty traffic at great risk, but
> > perform manuevers on these gearless, brakeless rides that world
> champions
> > cannot, For those in doubt take a ride with myself Zac, Sharky,Tad or
> any
> > of
> > the other couriers who also race and see if you recognize any
> destinctly,
> > different yet, highly skillled contrast to conventional approach. Since
> > the
> > seventies I have been a part of this sub-culture and have at no point
> felt
> > a
> > couriers skills any different then world class cyclists. Evolution since
> > those days is evident by the introduction of the courier world
> > championships
> > which I would challenge anyone who questions the skill level to compete.
> > My
> > final thought is that for those in doubt of a riders ability to skid the
> > record is over 260 feet on dry pavement
> >
> >
> >>From: "Malcolm, Gary"
> >>To: "'obra@list.obra.org'"
> >>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat]Multnomah County Judge's Ruling: Fixed-gear
> >>Bikes MustHave a Brake
> >>Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 11:04:27 -0700
> >>
> >>Personally I think fixies SHOULD have brakes for street usage...but
> >>REQUIRED? There are plenty of rules already... just ask your local
> >>building
> >>contractor.
> >>
> >>
> >>Besides as Mr. Ginsberg pointed out in TFA : The law does not state a
> >>difference between disc, clincher, or chain brakes and the Judge seems
> to
> >>have completely forgotten that hands use muscles too. The funniest part
> >>was
> >>the judge/cop asking, "what if your legs were cramping?." I guarantee if
> >>your legs stop working on a fixie you WILL come to a complete stop
> rather
> >>quickly :)
> >>
> >>
> >>Gary
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: GEORGE SCHRECK [mailto:gschreckchat@hughes.net]
> >>Sent: July 28, 2006 11:00 AM
> >>To: tokarev1@ix.netcom.com; obra@list.obra.org
> >>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Multnomah County Judge's Ruling: Fixed-gear
> Bikes
> >>MustHave a Brake
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>1. I do not see why someone would be resistant to a brake. Although
> they
> >>may be able to stop without one, there may be panic situations where a
> >>brake
> >>would be helpful. If it turns out that they never need it, I consider
> >>that
> >>good news for them.
> >>
> >>2. If we wish to have the rights as vehicles, we should comply with the
> >>rules that apply to vehicles like functioning brakes and lights at night
> >>(not ot mention obeying stop signs and traffic lights).
> >>
> >>----Original Message----
> >>From: tokarev1@ix.netcom.com
> >>Date: 07/28/2006 10:19 AM
> >>To:
> >>Subj: Re: [OBRA Chat] Multnomah County Judge's Ruling: Fixed-gear Bikes
> >>MustHave a Brake
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>That was very interesting to read!
> >>
> >>I side with Mark and the messenger here and thought Mark's cross
> >>examination
> >>was great!
> >>I believe that one can be completely safe on a brakeless fixie. I have
> >>taken
> >>a few rides
> >>with Zac Kovalcik and am amazed by his ability on the brake free
> machine.
> >>I
> >>myself have
> >>two brakes on my fixed gear bicycle. :)
> >>
> >>I predict that there will be tremendous resistance from the brakeless
> >>crowd
> >>about having
> >>to put a brake on their ride. Even if they never have to use it it wont
> do
> >>anything harmful
> >>to their job or bike. I am afraid that the only harm will be to their
> >>sense
> >>of fashion and would
> >>hate for all fixies, brakes or not, to be outlawed!!
> >>
> >>-Keith
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]On
> >>Behalf Of Curt Dewees
> >>Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 9:56 AM
> >>To: obra@list.obra.org
> >>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Multnomah County Judge's Ruling: Fixed-gear Bikes
> >>MustHave a Brake
> >>
> >>
> >>This account included blow-by-blow testimony from the judge, police
> >>officer,
> >>and the defendant's lawyer (some dude named Mark Ginsberg?
> >>
> >>http://bikeportland.org/2006/07/28/judge-finds-fault-with-fixies/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
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> >
> >
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> >
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>
>
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